I like this idea regarding the right of passage treaty Eloryn. I think this is the most realistic and best option to be implemented, and it least gives you some choices about what to do when the AI parks a scout ship next to your planet and that sort of thing. Should be possible to implement because from memory this is similar to how it worked back in Civilization I! I like the concept of the treaty but am not very keen about the original idea of limiting the speed of ships, as previously mentioned it would make for a very tedious game, especially on larger maps, and there's no real justification for it other than to nerf sneak attacks.
Regarding cloaking, that's also a good idea, but I doubt that could be included without a significant amount of coding of the AI to use and counter it effectively. I reckon the developers would already have enough on their plate trying to balance 12 different tech trees. GalCiv 3 maybe?

I haven't read recent posts on this thread, and this is based on an idea already mentioned, but because i liked it, i'll expand on it.

When a player is attacked or it is apparent that the player was the victim of a sneak attack (planets taken within one or two turns of a war declaration), that player gets an advantage bonus for defending subsequent planets from invasion which rises with each planet taken. The advantage lasts until the player is at peace. For each planet that player captures, the advantage is reduced.

This might be difficult to code, but I think the exploit potential is minimal and the results are relativly intuitive.

That could still be worked around. I occasionally park ships covering transports right next to an enemy planet, then wait for them to declare war on me. It neatly avoids the diplomatic hits from declaring war, and you don't give up the surprise aspect at all. All you lose is some control on the timing, and your enemy suffers the diplomatic hit, not you.

This also works if you have an ally. Bribe the comp to attack your ally, and they're generally too dumb to realize you will jump in. Again, they declared war first, so you don't take the diplomatic hit.

My point is, there will always be a way to blitz computers. Nerf what you like, put in indiscriminate borders, restrict movement, and do whatever else you may want - some enterprising soul will find a way around it, and then you'll hear complaints that something else needs to be nerfed. That doesn't mean that change isn't necessary, just don't expect a magic bullet.

i'm going to second that, for all the reasons specified in the post. i agree that it's well thought-out, realistic, and rather than limiting aspects of gameplay we're used to, it opens up new and interesting options.

one caveat, would it be possible to get the auto-pilot routing algorithms to make a ship's course based on shortest travel duration rather than shortest path? when it was just the super isolationist special ability, the micromanagement wasn't so bad - but annoying at times nonetheless. not now with these treaties, regardless of how they're implemented, players are going to have to chose between losing turns of movement and yet another layer of micromanagement that grows exponentially with map size. i don't know, given how MOBs can move so stupidly in 3D environment, it's probably harder than it sounds. still, it'd be nice.

Sneak attacks can be detected without a war declaration. If you take a planet within one or two turns of a war declaration by either side, you have committed a sneak attack. A small rules change to hold allies responsible for the behavior of the war starter would handle issue two.

And just in case you were replying to me willy, the defensive advantage for defending population would apply against any invader who attacks you while you are at war. It would basically be an attrition rule that helps losing civs. This has the benefit of actually helping new players who are more likely to be on the recieving end of a dogpile (thought perhaps not much) and weak civs in general.

For those who care about realism (and I don't), you can call it a 'desperation' bonus or whatever.

I believe that I am the one who first posted this concept, and I think of it as the "Pearl Harbor was your Worst Nightmare, or Don't Tread On Me" bonus. (Substitute your own preferred sneak attacks for political correctness or generational relevance.)

And to elaborate just a bit on my original intent, I did not mean that defenses on subsequent TURNS got a bonus. I meant that every battle after the 1st one RESOLVED got a defensive bonus.

To cope with some of the other ways of making sneak attack set-ups work (getting allies to do it, horrible diplomacy, etc), just flag every ship that is inside the influence zone of the enemy at the time a war starts as a potential sneak attacker. A war declared by the ship's owner would automatically move them out of the influence zone. Otherwise, say if your ally starts the war on your behalf, if a ship gets out of the influence zone without combat, the flag is removed; if any such ship gets involved in combat, invasion, etc, before it gets out to neutral space, it is still defined as a sneak attack and the penalties begin. (After all, that's what the enemy's propagandists..er..journalists are going to claim to stir up the populace, anyway.)

Here's an additional twist. After the initial 10% defensive bonus, the defender's defense OR attack bonus could have a decreasing chance of rising another 1% each turn, until the first turn that the increase failed its chance. Possibly you could relate that chance to what the diplomatic relations were like before the outbreak of war, a 'degree of outrage/betrayal' factor.

I think that pretty much covers every way to stash your ships on top of the enemy's worlds ready to pounce. And it adds some uncertainty; you can still do it, but its not going to be as easy as you'd hoped.

And don't forget that my original proposal also called for a big diplomatic hit relative to EVERYONE, and a chance that you could get thrown out of the UP. Those penalties would apply even if you won the war within a single turn.

drrider

i do not recall japan taking a huge diplo hit with Germany after they attacked pearl harbor.

I fight and destroy entire AIs in four or five turns...Anytime past the very start of a game I will generally be taking several planets by turn two of a war if I receive a surprise declaration of war from an AI! You just quick build a transport and hit any undefended planets (a planet with a beginning of game defender IS undefended) within reach of your planets. This hardly qualifies as a sneak attack if I can be doing it in reaction to the AI. Instead it turns into a penalty for reacting quickly to a war declaration.

Exactly. Any sort of defensive bonus against sneak attacks will also penalize people who respond well to a sneak attack against them.

And how exactly is "sneak attack" defined? If I'm crushing an empire by influence and they declare war due to that, am I supposed to wait a few turns before I start killing their ships in my space? Are their planets in my space off limits until a specified "sneak attack" turn limit has passed? Do my ships get flagged as possible sneak attackers if they start in my space, but can reach enemy planets anyway?

Yes, and in that case, shouldn't you be viewed as a threat if you are able to pull that off? If it is so easy to rush an undefended ai, I think you can deal with the added challenge that comes with a diplo hit or a defensive invasion bonus, etc.

If you don't like to think of it as a sneak attack penalty, think of it as a reaction to your tactical skill. You still get most of the benefit for your preparation, but the ai's respond accordingly.

Regardless of how you define it, the tactical part of the game is simply too easy. ANY defensive bonus is a penalty for aggressive/good play in any game. Do you think civ 4's rules are unfair because of all the defensive benefits both the ai and human get?

Kind of reminds me of someone complaining that they could win the fight if the other guy would just hold still!

lol

Why? If it is applied after the 1st qualifying attack occurs, but before the next player turn? The civs are at war at that point and by definition a quick and effective response by the attacked party vs someone they are already at war with could not be a sneak attack. I don't see how that would happen.

drrider